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Karate and the Chinese martial arts: Part 2
Posted On 05/17/2008 08:34:51 by dandjurdjevic
Continued from Part 1 of this article.

I doubt there is any information that will shed further light on the extent Chinese forms were adopted by Okinawan karate. To some extent, all we can do is conjecture.

Having said that, we can arrive somewhere by logical deduction.

It is interesting to note, for example, that Seisho Aragaki taught a form of sanchin, yet he did not study with Ryu Ryu Ko or with Shu Shi Wa. His kata (eg. Sochin and Niseishi) also have a lot of similarity to the kata of Kanryo Higaonna.

It is also odd that many karateka from Okinawa went to China and came back with a very similar art form - Norisato Nakaima, Kanryo Higaonna, Kanbun Uechi etc - regardless of when these visits were made (some were decades apart). The kata passed down by these men all have an identifiable stamp as being a common (or at least related) artform. This is odd, considering the changes that were taking place on the mainland between those visits (Boxer rebellion, natural evolution of art forms etc.).

The fact that the Okinawan community had a large expatriate base in Fujian may account for some of this (ie. it is known that Okinawans in Fujian continued to train in Okinawan karate while there - eg. Kojo family).

However it is also clear that many did study with Chinese teachers. The similarity between ryuei ryu and goju (despite the former being kept secret until the early 70s) tells us something. The fact that, say, seiyunchin is common to both systems might indicate a likelihood that it is a Ryu Ryu Ko kata, passed from Kanryo Higaonna to Miyagi - as is claimed in Morio Higaonna's book - and not a Miyagi innovation or something he learned on his own visits to China. There is even a startling similarity in the kata that are not common - eg. Anan clearly shares techniques with saifa and shisochin. This might also support the history in Morio Higaonna's book. On the other hand it might reveal no more than this: despite their studies in China, the Okinawans were reluctant to teach a “pure” Chinese form.

In the end I think that while Okinawans were taught certain kata in China, they either borrowed only elements or modified them to fit into their own systems. This is perhaps because they saw their own methods as being at least of equal worth to the Chinese. In other words, it seems likely to me that they were *adding* to their native Okinawa te - not replacing it.

Even if the sequence of a particular kata is quite faithful to the Chinese kata they were taught, the feel and method of movement has been altered. Try teaching a goju kata to a shotokan practitioner and you'll see what I mean - they convert it into their own framework unconsciously. Whenever I have learned a Chinese form I have been criticised for making it look too much like karate. On the other hand some kung fu students who have trained in our school still look like they are doing their own art when doing our kata - eg. their zenkutsu dachi looks the same, but not. Over time (and generations) the movements will further morph back into the practitioner's culture and look very little like the original. The technique will remain, but will be executed with a different style.

Copyright © 2008 Dejan Djurdjevic

Tags: Chinese Goju Cross-reference Karate Origins



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Viewing 1 - 10 out of 10 Comments

From: dandjurdjevic
05/19/2008 23:02:07
Hi Tom (Gwohsau)

I agree with you.  I put in the theory about Ryu Ryu Ko and Nakaima for the sake of completeness.  But note my comment "On the other hand it might reveal no more than this: despite their studies in China, the Okinawans were reluctant to teach a “pure” Chinese form."  On the whole I think Ryuei Ryu kata are all attributable to Miyagi and other Okinawan sources.  I'm going to address the Nakaima/Miyagi connection in my next instalment of "The origins of goju-ryu kata".

Thanks for the input - astute as always.

Dan


From: vysokij
05/19/2008 20:36:17

Pivo!

The nectar of knowledge!




From: Gwohsau
05/19/2008 20:26:31
Hi Dan, You wrote"However it is also clear that many did study with Chinese teachers. The similarity between ryuei ryu and goju (despite the former being kept secret until the early 70s) tells us something. The fact that, say, seiyunchin is common to both systems might indicate a likelihood that it is a Ryu Ryu Ko kata, passed from Kanryo Higaonna to Miyagi - as is claimed in Morio Higaonna's book - and not a Miyagi innovation or something he learned on his own visits to China."


Doesn't he also note that on Page 60 of the history of Karate (by Higaonna sensei) that Nakaima  studied under Miyagi between 1918-1925?  I know this isn't something many folks want to think of but if one is truly searching for the the truth it is something that must be considered.It is quite possible Miyagi Kata were adapted into the Nakaima family system and or possibly new kata being created and inspired by them ie..Anan and attributed to Ryu Ryu ko. It is know that Nakaima taught the Pinans and Naihanchi as well so he was exposed to a great deal beyond a single family system. Just a thought.


From: dandjurdjevic
05/19/2008 07:07:17

vysokij wrote:
I would venture to say that Okinawan to-te would have developed even without the Japanese "opression." ... and that refinement was greatly influenced by the Japanese conventions of order and traditions.


I agree.  Japanese (Satsuma) oppression has been overstated by many (now by me too!).  When one of Napoleon's warships visited Okinawa they reported back to France that they had never seen such a peaceful island.  The only person in the town prison was an old woman who had been a nuisance!  No violent brigands, no need for covert training under lanterns in the middle of the night, etc. Why did the Okinawans feel the need to develop such a fighting tradition?  And why was it often secretive?



From: dandjurdjevic
05/19/2008 07:02:19

vysokij wrote:

[quote-"dandjurdjevic"]


There is even a startling similarity in the kata that are not common -
eg. Anan clearly shares techniques with saifa and shisochin.



Where are the startling similarities?


 


 

[/quote]

Okay "tall guy".  I overstated things a bit.  But with a prolific output in blogs, what do you expect?

Maybe I'd had too much pivo (spesiba!).

Don't know how shisochin crept in there.  I meant to say saifa only.  The similarity is in the side to side embusen with double blocks (high and low) - admittedly with opposite arms to saifa...

I might have been thinking of the finger thrusts re: shisochin (albeit that anan uses single finger, but I see a small connection).  On the other hand, the shisochin reference was probably just pivo.


From: vysokij
05/19/2008 04:41:36

[quote-"dandjurdjevic"]

There is even a startling similarity in the kata that are not common -
eg. Anan clearly shares techniques with saifa and shisochin.

[/quote]

Where are the startling similarities?

 

 



From: vysokij
05/19/2008 04:40:05
There are also anthropological evidence that many Okinawans are of Polynesian extract.


From: vysokij
05/19/2008 04:39:19
I would venture to say that Okinawan to-te would have developed even without the Japanese "opression." ... and that refinement was greatly influenced by the Japanese conventions of order and traditions.


From: dandjurdjevic
05/18/2008 07:41:41
Once again Master Randy it is a pleasure to have your input.  Your information regarding Chojun Miyagi was not something I had previously been aware of, although I did know that many Okinawans were of Chinese ancestry!

Thanks again.

Dan


From: wingchuntaiji
05/17/2008 18:18:27
Many Okinawans had Chinese ancestry. Miyagi's ancestor was Mr. Mui. The arts were there for many generations before the Japanese oppression. Tang Shou - Karate was created in Okinawa due to the oppression.




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